Principal Open Forum – Michael Heron Lecture Theatre – Monday 18th February
Panel:
Mathew Owen (MO) (SU President/Chair)
Peter Kopelman (PK) (Principal)
Andy Kent (AK) (Dean for Education)
Pat Hughes (PH) (Dean for Staff and Students)
Sophie Bowen (SB) (Secretary and Academic Registrar)
In attendance:
Lauren Wellburn (LW) (SU Vice President for Education and Welfare/Clerk)
Joanne Ashton (JA)
Jack Sugrue (JS)
Ranvir Cheema (RC)
Harriet Dewhurst (HD)
Stuart Deaton (SD)
Jon Hilton (JH)
Onkar Rehal (OR)
Mena Farag (MF)
MO introduced the panel and discussed the format of the night. He stated he had received 18 questions from students who couldn’t attend the meeting.
Question 1:
Why was the decision to have the St. George’s University colours for graduation as green and gold, which are the Student Union colours and not dark and light blue, the university colours?
PK stated that historically green and gold were the original university colours with blue being introduced with the new logo. He recounted that there had been a survey sent to all students and staff and that green and gold had been the overwhelming choice amongst the students. The staff vote had been for the alternative option but they had been overruled by the student choice in that instance.
JS agreed that there had been enough surveying of student opinion at the time, including both Senate and a wider student survey.
Question 2:
The latest edition of The Student BMJ raised concerns yet again about international MBBS courses having an impact on the availability of Foundation jobs for UK graduates. Can the principal reassure students on UK funded medical courses that the introduction of international MBBS courses will not directly increase competition rates for Foundation training?
PK stated that the international and INTO courses were aimed at international students who will ultimately work abroad. What they cannot stop is the occasional student who applies for UK jobs – this can be discouraged but not actively prevented. PK went on to remark that it is anticipated in the future is that the bottleneck currently related to the students applying for Foundation posts will ease as the number of medical students is also decreasing overall. He stated that these issues had been carefully considered before we begam these ventures and that it was a core principle of St. George’s that these courses did not create a backdoor into UK practice for international students.
JH asked whether students on the UNic course (in Nicosia) were able to gain UK posts
PK responded that if they were EU citizens then yes. In the first cohort there were more UK applicants than expected but this had changed for current and future cohorts. This year a large number reside outside from places in the Middle East and in Canada.
Question 3:
Can the Principal give us an outline of other UK medical school’s international activities so that we can better understand what is happening around the UK, and if other UK medical schools are not pursuing the same direction as SGUL, then why not?
AK stated that there are three medical schools in the UK actively looking at international programmes. Newcastle were at the forefront with their programme in Malaysia, Southampton who have placements in Germany and St. George’s with a franchise in Nicosia and our own international programme with INTO (IUP – INTO University Partnerships). The reason others aren’t doing any active work at the moment is that St. George’s were identified to be the first medical UK school to work with IUP as the ideal partner to work with them. They are well resourced and have strong international links abroad in terms of marketing. AK went onto say that many UK medical schools are watching St. George’s progress with a view to launch their own but that St. George’s are currently the trailblazers.
PK clarified that there was some international activity at Imperial and UCL but that ours is different. He stated that the ethos behind pursuing international programmes was:
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It addresses that health is very much a global issue and it allows us to gain better understanding of disease progresses on a global scale
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It increases awareness of resource and facilities of healthcare around the world
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It creates for our students an increase in international exchange opportunities.
RC asked about Biomedical Sciences international opportunities.
AK responded that the drive for them would be partnership with American Universities as there are lab opportunities there. Physio international opportunities were also being worked on and he stated that the international opportunities do not stop with the MBBS course; it will hopefully be a case of increasing international resources for all St. George’s students.
RC asked whether much of the drive was financial
AK stated that there was of course a financial drive but that it wasn’t the stand-alone reason.
SB clarified that one of our weaknesses in the international sense is that we are a relatively small university and specialise in healthcare so have had fewer international students than others. For example Bristol and Birmingham are much larger institutions and have large cohorts of international students to provide that awareness and experiences for UK students.
JS stated that he hadn’t met an INTO student as yet and raised a concern that if St. George’s brought the MBBS 5 and 4 year streams together in order to integrate courses. He was concerned that there was a separate space for INTO students which seems to keep them away from the home students.
AK clarified that the opposite was true and that integration is at the core, though not without problems. INTO students are taught alongside MBBS students from year 1 before going abroad for the rest of the course. There may be some students who stay here longer if there are visa issues. There were currently 6 students on the 4 year programme and 8 on the 5 year programme in year 1. For other courses students will also be integrated with UK students.
AK went onto talk about the INTO centre in Jenner wing and admitted that he was aware that students will walk past the glass centre and see if quiet and unused and wonder why they cannot use it. He clarified that this was actually a centre for the foundation INTO students using money from the joint venture who are a small group doing the equivalent of A2 levels. They are separate in an ‘A level school’ for international students because they are 17 years old and have special care requirements. This year the numbers were very small; there are expected to be c100 next year.
HD asked how they were planning on accommodating T year INTO students as clinical placements were already crowded.
PK responded that there had been a national review of the medical student numbers allowed and the quota for SGUL is now strictly controlled to 259 per year. The university cannot recruit over this but it is a very complicated process as all students, transferring, repeating etc. are counted as new entry per year. With this reduction in numbers there should be a reduction of the number on each placement. PK stated that he was very sensitive that students on the home course do not have their clinical experience damaged by any international programme activity. The funding from the INTO courses will also be used to increase the number of available placements available if needed.
HD responded with a concern that transfers from biomedical sciences to T year might be cut
PK stated that there was no intention to cut the BMS à MBBS system and responded by emphasising that medical student numbers are being strictly regulated by the DoH at the moment as there is a presiding impression that there are too many doctors in training. He stated that the reality is that there will in fact be a shortage of doctors in certain disciplines.
Question 5
Why do Biomed graduates need to sit the GAMSAT after sitting 2 pre-clinical years and passing?
AK responded that there was a concerted discussion about this ongoing at the moment
SB said that the intention was originally meeting UCAS requirements to ensure fairness from wherever students had come from be that Biomedical degree or and arts course.
Question 6
OR asked about compulsory signed in teaching in the T year of the MBBS course; he said he felt that it created an odd relationship between staff and students and that some students don’t learn effectively from this type of structured teaching are stopped from doing their own self directed study.
AK stated that the GMC had talked about sign in sessions during their recent visit. He reiterated that the university don’t require 100% attendance (it is set at minimum of 80%). He agreed that one thing not being managed well for students was not always being able to structure their time, especially in light of health, illness or projects they’re undertaking around the core curriculum. However AK was keen to state that there were good reasons for having some degree of compulsory, structured teaching. The current MBBS Periodic Review was looking at this, along with many other aspects of the course.
PK stated that there were however regulations with relation to professional practice which require attendance to core lectures and training opportunities from students and graduates.
Question 7
SD spoke about the limited access to facilities after office hours. The labs being shut at 5/6pm and physio, SDL and baseroom facilities limited or closed. He said that in physiotherapy they were unable to practice procedures as there was no equipment available. He said that steps had sometimes been taken to bring the equipment down to the second floor which seemed to put it at even greater risk of damage than finding a solution to the out of hours access in the proper setting.
AK responded that there must be something that can be done about it and it is something they will certainly look at
MO added that the issue had come up at Senate and been raised in relation to other rooms
SB said that she was sure there had been work done on the issue previously and solutions found and it was frustrating that those had not continued so they need readdressing
PK added that student sessions and recorded ‘responsible officers’ for equipment and rooms was likely a good way to move forward.
AP ___ AK, SB and MO (alongside SD and other reps if needed) to meet to discuss the issue and report back findings via SU Senate to year reps
Question 8:
Why hasn’t syllabus of topics been published to help self-directed study?
JH clarified the question by saying that there were no dedicated P year LOBs to aid awareness of what needs to be covered in that specific year
PH responded that LOBs from all courses had to be brought together and merged with the change to the new course. This was a huge task as there were over 6000. They worked through each and marked it 1*, 1, 2 or 3 in terms of priority. The aim was to create a list of what you need to know as a 1st year practitioner. The difficulty in staging it to year is that people go through the learning outcomes in a different order and have clinical experiences at different times.
Question 9:
How far are we along with the improvements on the Wifi availability; particularly in regard to lecture theatres?
Wifi coverage has been extended and in a review of getting it extended further into lecture theatres an assessment was completed. This revealed that, when the building was designed, some lecture theatres had a built in system to prevent bleeps going off (and thus wifi signal from getting in).
MO stated that he had sourced a quote to have wifi ports installed into the lecture theatres in question so that wifi access would be available in all lecture theatres. They are starting to do mapping and the figure is modest so has gone onto the planning stage.
Question 10:
Why does it appear that so much money has been invested into the INTO scheme and none into other courses?
AK responded that the money invested into INTO comes partly from the joint scheme and is in reality actually far lower than the amount spent on 2nd floor refurb or the library
PK added that St. George’s also charge a rent to INTO which goes straight back into facilities here. In light of the number of international and INTO questions he discussed the possibility of a half day information session put on to clarify the INTO programme to students and clear up misunderstanding that persists in the student body and amongst staff too.
SB suggested it might be worth creating an ‘INTO101’ or ‘FAQ’ on all courses at St. George’s so that awareness of each is increased
Question 11:
Why is halls rent increasing when the service is unchanged? It appears that rent is increasing over the rate of inflation and is much more expensive than anywhere else in Tooting.
AK stated that he, the Students’ Union, Pat Hughes, the Principal, Mark Bery (head of finance) and many others fought extremely hard to keep the rent down. The finance committee proposed the initial rises and are external lay members but the issue was brought to Council to be discussed and a very complex dialogue occurred, taking into consideration all demands and needs of the institution, finance committee and the students themselves. He went on to say that although they are rising to £140-150 this is a large success as it is in line with inflation and not the above-inflation rise that was originally suggested. AK continued by saying that part of the problem was that they had decided to build high spec halls accommodation with no choice or different rooms available. That is a challenged and a more tiered system would have perhaps been more appropriate.
PK added that the higher price than other Tooting accommodation reflects the energy prices in addition to the fact it is high spec accommodation.
Question 12:
Why do students who do not attend the majority of their attachments still achieve an acceptable at sign off? It is disheartening to the rest of us.
MO suggested this was something that would be better answered by the head of MBBS David Oliviera and will report back to the student after a meeting has taken place.
Question 13:
Why on the medicine programme is it possible to graduate without ever completing a GI firm, a resp firm or a renal placement but having been allocated 3 urology placements?
AK stated that this was absolutely not ideal but it was not a problem unique to St. George’s and all medical schools face the issue. He said that the administrators try their best with allocations but that the system isn’t perfect.
PK responded that he agreed that is wasn’t ideal but that there is now a move towards generalism that is starting to influence courses. He added that it is some way off but may address the issue.
SB added that there is currently a Periodic Review being undertaken which is looking at every aspect of the MBBS course. She said there had already been a substantial amount of information gained from it and some change for next year. The majority of change will be seen from 2014-15 academic year onwards.
AK ended by saying that there is an aspect of trade off as, to ensure students get different placements and firms in vital disciplines they have to look at hospitals further afield and feedback from students is usually that they don’t like that.
Question 14:
The Principal has previously mentioned that he thinks that students are over-examined. Other than the progress test being removed, what else is happening?
SB responded that the assessment stream of the periodic review will be looking closely at all the examinations alongside professional requirements, Tomorrow’s Doctors etc. She also reiterated that to receive a professional qualification does require thorough assessment.
PK thought that the issue of formative and summative assessment had become rather conflated and this created issues – he stated that it needed looking at.
AK added that the GMC have stated that St. George’s are the national leaders in clinical assessment. He said that is was a student led decision to remove the progress test and it was upheld against some staff opposition.
Question 15:
Re. MBBS4/5, do you think it is fair that 1/3 of our final mark is based on the progress test which includes questions that are not taught on our syllabus and has now been removed from subsequent years?
AK asked LW if she would like to talk on that question as it was something she had raised at meetings last year.
LW said that this issue was raised as, if the progress test would continue to be a summative assessment, she was aware that many student would feel as the question asker does. Due to revalidation and academic years you cannot change the assessment structure half way through a course so the step was taken to make the 3rd test a resit opportunity with the loss of the 3rd formal assessment.
Question 16:
Have you considered how selling the St. George’s name to overseas bodies (Cyprus) will affect the Students’ Union?
MO said that he had met with SB and discussed this issue in November. The UNic site students had approached St. George’s and the SU to discuss the possibility of setting up a Students’ Union overseas as a society of the home SU. It was decided that under the current constitution this wouldn’t work as, if accepted, each time something or someone changed they would have to come back to Exec to be approved.
SB added that she was due to go over to Cyprus and ask the students there what they want from the Students’ Union here to clarify what we can make available to them without overloading the SU at St. George’s.
AK responded that he hoped students didn’t think that he and PK went around trying to sell the SU name. He stated that they were committed to strengthening the St. George’s brand but that franchising programmes means you have to provide quality resources to them too.
Question 17:
What improvements have you made/will you make to the students support for when they need to interrupt or fail a year? There have been some cases of students lacking support.
PH responded that that was a mixed bag of students and there are different students in each category. The type of support offered is negotiated with the student and all are offered it to pick up if they want to. If students are staying in the local area then it is easier than if they’re going home or abroad. Students always have the option of contacting their personal tutor and in tutor training they are encouraged to keep in touch throughout the year to check in on students.
PH went on to say that failing students are formally picked up by the examiner and personal tutor after exam failures/life events and there is a comprehensive system in place.
LW stated that she thought there was a pervasive communication issue as there are many support services available that students might not know about and that is something that needs addressing.
Question 18:
What solutions do you have for the lack of storage and space for all societies at SGUL?
MO said that he had been in talks with Neal Deans of Estates and Facilities about this and that it is going through space committee at the moment. The focus is looking into alternative storage and better management of current storage space. He went on to say he will report back any conclusions as they arise.
Question 19:
Why is the Foundation for Medicine course no longer running?
AK responded that this was Kingston run course and that Kingston had taken the decision to stop running it. St. George’s decided not to pick it up from them as after examining the evidence it was decided that it didn’t fulfil our widening participation agenda as much as our own initiatives
PH added that there was a comprehensive evidence base that the foundation for medicine course doesn’t seem to facilitate as well as adjusted criteria (the system we run). She continued by saying that widening participation is a priority at St. Georges and as such it is ever in consideration by the Access Agreement Monitoring Group (AAMG) who meet to discuss such issues.
SB said that from 2012 the access agreement group (with student representation) had to meet specific targets and that there were severe consequences if they are not met. Providing access avenues into medicine was therefore not off the agenda even though the Foundation for Medicine course had ended.
Question 20:
PK asked how the students present thought that they could be best communicated with?
JS stated that he believed the demeanour, tone and methods of communication all had issues that needed addressing.
JH said that the ‘From the Deans’ was fantastic and should be continued
MO and LW stated they had received positive feedback about the ‘You Said We Did’ posters
In some cases it seemed that the SU had communicated back to course reps but this may not be reaching all students, this would be looked at again.
PK stated that he wanted to nurture positive feeling about St. George’s and foster pride in an organisation that has been around for 280 years. He emphasised that we are the last university with its founding name and that he hoped that feedback can be constructive but also positive.
LW said that she felt that sometimes there was a culture of negative feedback taking priority and that perhaps staff morale and productivity would increase were we to celebrate our successes and pass on positive comments more often.
MO thanked everyone for their attendance